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cell games Piccolo(no weights) vs imperfect cell(post humans)
Topic Started: Nov 30 2011, 11:36 AM (1,104 Views)
Paikuan extreme
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Post rosat piccolo and imperfect cell is a good match, i mean cell took out 17 with piccolo trying to protect him. They both failed. In a one on one fight like with 17, piccolo would win. Cell wasnt very smart before becoming semi perfect... However since it would be a fight to the death, piccolo would pull out all the stops. It takes power for them BOTH to regenerate. Just based on what ive seen i believe piccolo takes this with his cunning and use of power. Him and imperfect cell are in perfect range for hurting each other. In the end i think a kaikosen with a light grenade blast would do it.
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GrooseStrikesBack
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Piccolo turns this fight into the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
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MetaCooler
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Ninjajp247
Nov 30 2011, 11:16 PM
Cell wasnt very smart before becoming semi perfect...
I disagree, I prefer his personality in imperfect form to Semi Perfect. He displayed Vegeta-like traits in semi-perfect form, though I admit that's probably what saved his life in the end.
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Muhahahaha
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KP: Is this list better?
#17 100
Piccolo 104
exhausted 66.5
Light grende powa 179.55
Imperfect cell 266.24
#16 250
Semi perfect cell surpassed 500
full power 666.66
Edited by Muhahahaha, Dec 1 2011, 04:28 PM.
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Paikuan extreme
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In imperfect form he seemed smart because he was bent on surviving until he got his full power, so in my mind he ALWAYS had delusions of grandeur. So to me thats what made him dumb because he was COMPLETELY one track minded. If he hadnt absorbed all those poor humans, tien and krillin could have killed him easy.
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+ supersaqer
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Muhahahaha
Dec 1 2011, 04:28 PM
KP: Is this list better?
#17 100
Piccolo 104
exhausted 66.5
Light grende powa 179.55
Imperfect cell 266.24
#16 250
Semi perfect cell surpassed 500
full power 666.66
It has some problems, but it's still OK.
It's not surpassed, it's suppressed.
Surpassed means that you have gotten better or stronger, etc... in many ways, like Goku surpassed Vegeta after his x100 gravity training.
Suppressed means that he isn't giving all what he has got or holding back, like Cell wasn't using his full power against Goku, he was suppressing it.
I'll fix the list for you.
#17 : 800
Piccolo : 850
Exhausted Piccolo : 425
Light Grenade : 1275
Imperfect Cell : 1350 - 1500
#16 : 1300 - 1450
Semi Perfect Cell (Suppressed) : 3000 - 3500
Semi Perfect Cell (Full Power) : 5000 - 7000



Edited by supersaqer, Dec 2 2011, 07:28 AM.
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Muhahahaha
Dec 1 2011, 04:28 PM
KP: Is this list better?
#17 100
Piccolo 104
exhausted 66.5
Light grende powa 179.55
Imperfect cell 266.24
#16 250
Semi perfect cell surpassed 500
full power 666.66
Yeah, that's cool, except I'd raise #16 a little to 255, but that's just tiny nitpicking on my part. ^_^
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Muhahahaha
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supersaqer
Dec 1 2011, 07:04 PM
Muhahahaha
Dec 1 2011, 04:28 PM
KP: Is this list better?
#17 100
Piccolo 104
exhausted 66.5
Light grende powa 179.55
Imperfect cell 266.24
#16 250
Semi perfect cell surpassed 500
full power 666.66
It has some problems, but it's still OK.
It's not surpassed, it's suppressed.
Surpassed means that you have gotten better or stronger, etc... in many ways, like Goku surpassed Vegeta after his x100 gravity training.
Suppressed means that he isn't giving all what he has got or holding back, like Cell wasn't using his full power against Goku, he was suppressing it.
I'll fix the list for you.
#17 : 800
Piccolo : 850
Exhausted Piccolo : 425
Light Grenade : 1275
Imperfect Cell : 1350 - 1500
#16 : 1300 - 1450
Semi Perfect Cell (Suppressed) : 3000 - 3500
Semi Perfect Cell (Full Power) : 5000 - 7000



a 6-18% difference between piccolo's attack and cell is WAY too small. cell should minimum be 30% ahead of the attack. he tanked it without really doing anything.
About the "surpassed" I'm sorry my english is.. >_<
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lunar2
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Kamikaze Pyro
Nov 30 2011, 01:24 PM
I've just been looking at other points of view lately, and I realized I needed larger gaps between people because I wasn't factoring in tanking ability and amplifying attacks. #16 should be in an entirely different league from Piccolo/#17 and below simply due to the fact that he was rather equal to a Cell that tanked Piccolo's Light Grenade like a small gust, and there's no way that attack amps by a measly 50%; IMO it's got to be at least 2.5x. Even though Piccolo was exhausted, his attack still produced enough raw power to make #17, who couldn't even sense chi, hit the deck. Cell took that attack like a champ, and 50% is necessary for a tank like that IMO; 30% is a good stomp, 40% is nigh-tanking, and 50% and above is tank monster territory.

#17: 100
Piccolo: 110
-- exhausted: 65
-- Light Grenade powa: 162.5
Cell: 243.75 [245]

Then Form 2 Cell acts like he doesn't even notice that #16 punched him directly in the face, which again is another 50%, and he's still suppressed at that point.

#16: 245
Form 2 Cell (supp.): 367.5 [370]

That already exceeds the simple "Imperfect Cell + #17" formula I used to use, which relied on a mere 30% gap between #17 and #16, so yeah. I have changed...

BUT MY LOGIC IS NOT WITHOUT REASON DAMMIT!

For more insight, I have Form 2 Cell powering up around 30-40% more to reach full power against Super Vegeta, so Piccolo would have to nearly quintuple his power in the RoSaT just to surpass this Cell. Catching up to Initial Perfect Cell would require almost a 9x increase. Again, all my opinion of course.
1. all the androids had "scanners" of some sort. I think #16's was just the only one that worked over distances. so #17 would have known roughly how powerful the light grenade was. it just has to be stronger than #17's barrier to scare him like that.

2. unless the light grenade is a genki attack, i don't see it as being that high of an amplification while still being charged so quickly. again, it just needs to be strong enough to be a serious threat to #17. piccolo was desperate, and was pulling out his last option. that doesn't mean that it needs to be a good option. it needs to be better when quick charged than the masenko, sure, but i certainly don't think it should be better than a fully charged beam.

3. i don't think the 30% rule holds all that much water, really. i think it should be more along the lines of 1/6 difference than 1/3. that's because i place more importance on vegeta vs. dodoria than vegeta vs. cui, which iirc is where the 30% rule comes from.

so, instead of:

1. 10% or less: rivalling range

2. 11-20%: clear advantage

3. 21-30%: long shot

4. >30%: absolute stomp

each should be cut about in half.

all of this still leads to cell being 30-50% ahead of piccolo, which is pretty much standard, i think.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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I'll try that out and see what becomes of this...
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Kruegs Outlandish
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lunar2
Dec 2 2011, 01:56 AM
1. 10% or less: rivalling range

2. 11-20%: clear advantage

3. 21-30%: long shot

4. >30%: absolute stomp
This looks good enough, and it actually look a lot like what I use, though I'm pretty sure I stated that in the SPC vs SSJ2 Goku topic.

essential I'd say my def of stomp and your def of long shot are the same.

I start with 1.1 and then multiply by 1.1 each time. basically, if A stomps B if A has an advantage over someone who has an advantage of B.

100%
110%
121%
133.1%
146.41%

etc.

I'm trying to tier everyone relevant in Z up and then apply this to get something of a bp list going.
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supersaqer
Dec 1 2011, 07:04 PM
Muhahahaha
Dec 1 2011, 04:28 PM
KP: Is this list better?
#17 100
Piccolo 104
exhausted 66.5
Light grende powa 179.55
Imperfect cell 266.24
#16 250
Semi perfect cell surpassed 500
full power 666.66
It has some problems, but it's still OK.
It's not surpassed, it's suppressed.
Surpassed means that you have gotten better or stronger, etc... in many ways, like Goku surpassed Vegeta after his x100 gravity training.
Suppressed means that he isn't giving all what he has got or holding back, like Cell wasn't using his full power against Goku, he was suppressing it.
I'll fix the list for you.
#17 : 800
Piccolo : 850
Exhausted Piccolo : 425
Light Grenade : 1275
Imperfect Cell : 1350 - 1500
#16 : 1300 - 1450
Semi Perfect Cell (Suppressed) : 3000 - 3500
Semi Perfect Cell (Full Power) : 5000 - 7000



#17 : 800
Piccolo : 850
Exhausted Piccolo : 425
Light Grenade : 1275
Imperfect Cell : 2000
#16 : 1950
Semi Perfect Cell (Suppressed) : 5000
Semi Perfect Cell (Full Power) : 8000

Is this a better list?
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Speed-o'-Sound Sonic
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Muhahahaha
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supersaqer
Dec 2 2011, 07:30 AM
supersaqer
Dec 1 2011, 07:04 PM
Muhahahaha
Dec 1 2011, 04:28 PM
KP: Is this list better?
#17 100
Piccolo 104
exhausted 66.5
Light grende powa 179.55
Imperfect cell 266.24
#16 250
Semi perfect cell surpassed 500
full power 666.66
It has some problems, but it's still OK.
It's not surpassed, it's suppressed.
Surpassed means that you have gotten better or stronger, etc... in many ways, like Goku surpassed Vegeta after his x100 gravity training.
Suppressed means that he isn't giving all what he has got or holding back, like Cell wasn't using his full power against Goku, he was suppressing it.
I'll fix the list for you.
#17 : 800
Piccolo : 850
Exhausted Piccolo : 425
Light Grenade : 1275
Imperfect Cell : 1350 - 1500
#16 : 1300 - 1450
Semi Perfect Cell (Suppressed) : 3000 - 3500
Semi Perfect Cell (Full Power) : 5000 - 7000



#17 : 800
Piccolo : 850
Exhausted Piccolo : 425
Light Grenade : 1275
Imperfect Cell : 2000
#16 : 1950
Semi Perfect Cell (Suppressed) : 5000
Semi Perfect Cell (Full Power) : 8000

Is this a better list?
Yes much better, just wondering what method you use for semi perfect cell(full power)?
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Muhahahaha
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lunar2
Dec 2 2011, 01:56 AM
Kamikaze Pyro
Nov 30 2011, 01:24 PM
I've just been looking at other points of view lately, and I realized I needed larger gaps between people because I wasn't factoring in tanking ability and amplifying attacks. #16 should be in an entirely different league from Piccolo/#17 and below simply due to the fact that he was rather equal to a Cell that tanked Piccolo's Light Grenade like a small gust, and there's no way that attack amps by a measly 50%; IMO it's got to be at least 2.5x. Even though Piccolo was exhausted, his attack still produced enough raw power to make #17, who couldn't even sense chi, hit the deck. Cell took that attack like a champ, and 50% is necessary for a tank like that IMO; 30% is a good stomp, 40% is nigh-tanking, and 50% and above is tank monster territory.

#17: 100
Piccolo: 110
-- exhausted: 65
-- Light Grenade powa: 162.5
Cell: 243.75 [245]

Then Form 2 Cell acts like he doesn't even notice that #16 punched him directly in the face, which again is another 50%, and he's still suppressed at that point.

#16: 245
Form 2 Cell (supp.): 367.5 [370]

That already exceeds the simple "Imperfect Cell + #17" formula I used to use, which relied on a mere 30% gap between #17 and #16, so yeah. I have changed...

BUT MY LOGIC IS NOT WITHOUT REASON DAMMIT!

For more insight, I have Form 2 Cell powering up around 30-40% more to reach full power against Super Vegeta, so Piccolo would have to nearly quintuple his power in the RoSaT just to surpass this Cell. Catching up to Initial Perfect Cell would require almost a 9x increase. Again, all my opinion of course.
1. all the androids had "scanners" of some sort. I think #16's was just the only one that worked over distances. so #17 would have known roughly how powerful the light grenade was. it just has to be stronger than #17's barrier to scare him like that.

2. unless the light grenade is a genki attack, i don't see it as being that high of an amplification while still being charged so quickly. again, it just needs to be strong enough to be a serious threat to #17. piccolo was desperate, and was pulling out his last option. that doesn't mean that it needs to be a good option. it needs to be better when quick charged than the masenko, sure, but i certainly don't think it should be better than a fully charged beam.

3. i don't think the 30% rule holds all that much water, really. i think it should be more along the lines of 1/6 difference than 1/3. that's because i place more importance on vegeta vs. dodoria than vegeta vs. cui, which iirc is where the 30% rule comes from.

so, instead of:

1. 10% or less: rivalling range

2. 11-20%: clear advantage

3. 21-30%: long shot

4. >30%: absolute stomp

each should be cut about in half.

all of this still leads to cell being 30-50% ahead of piccolo, which is pretty much standard, i think.
mm 30-50%? I dunno. I think pretty much every little blast/beam they throw is at least x1.8 by this point of the series by the very least, no reason to be below that. the attack was charged for a bit of time. #17 barrier can block any weak blast(x2 of him) only. so it must be around x2.5 minimum.
#17 100(barrier: 220)
Piccolo 102(cutted in half the difference)
Exhausted 66.2
Light grande powa 165.5
Imperfect cell/#16 205(cut by half the difference)
Cell still ends up 105% stronger. u cant think any simple attack is so weak. in order to have cell 30-50% stronger piccolo's attack would have to be x1.8-1.9 at the very most. charging the ki blast for long doesnt add to it that much power IMO.
Edited by Muhahahaha, Dec 2 2011, 08:59 AM.
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